3:10 pm - 01/12/2015

Bangtan (BTS) release teaser pictures taken in The Holocaust Memorial in Berlin



BTS posted teaser photos on Twitter recently, which is great! But, uh, then people recognized the location as the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin.

So … yeah that’s a bad idea. Like horrible. Pictures is one thing, but a fucking photoshoot, apparently for a photobook? Come on.

Anyway, after being inundated with tweets, BTS’s official Twitter finally took the pics down (which is why I don’t have all of them), but it’s a bit late for that anyway.

I trust I don’t have to explain the problem to oppa apologists here.

OP UPDATE:

A spokesperson of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe had previously commented on a similar situation:

"We only give permission to projects that have a connection to the memorial, the Holocaust or some aspect of commemoration."

This raised concern amoung fans that BigHit either didn't attempt to get permission or were denied and followed suit anyway.

It's also been noted by some that Rapmon had previously worn a hat that bears Nazi symbols (swastika, eagle, and skull). Specifically, the insignia of the SS, who were responsible for running the concentration camps all over Europe.

BigHit has yet to release an official statement.







Source: AsianJunkie, Jezebel

This is disgusting. No words.

I don't really like linking AsianJunkie since their "articles" are not really "articles" but it's the only one I could find that isn't Allkpop.
parkjsun 13th-Jan-2015 03:47 am (UTC)
Woww, an oppa didn't mean it in this situation?? Alright, so a BTS fan of Jewish descent gave her opinion on whether the memorial means anything to her. But, she's not a authority on Jewish people and there have also been plenty of Jewish kpop fans who have expressed their discontent.

She says, "There’s not a single mention of Holocaust/Shoah, there’s no adequate explanation on what this memorial represents." But the site's title is literally "Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe". Did they not even look up the site that were going to have a photoshoot at?

She says, the site "attracted a lot of criticism from the Jewish community for ‘suggesting a hierarchy of suffering’ by excluding other groups that suffered from the Nazis just as much." Which was true when it was first constructed however, other memorials have subsequently opened which commemorate other identifiable groups that were also victims of the Nazis. For example, the Memorial to Homosexuals Persecuted Under Nazism and the Memorial to the Sinti and Roma victims of National Socialism.

She says, "Second of all, unless you’re from Europe, have a guide/local person to explain or are informed in some other way, there is absolutely no way for you to know that it is a memorial." The place looks like a literal graveyard. If you have half a brain, it's easy to tell that it's some sort of memorial.



She says, "As long as there is no acknowledgement of Holocaust on the memorial grounds, it has no meaning, no voice." But there's an information centre on the site of the memorial! That's where all these people are lining up to go:

[Information Centre]







She's spouting off a bunch of nonsense and BTS fans are eating it up because they don't want to believe their oppas and their management companies(!!!) can do such a thing. It's not like kpop has been culturally insensitive before right? There is information readily available to them at every point and if they chose to ignore it then people have every right to be angry.
rennaii 13th-Jan-2015 05:34 am (UTC)
I never said "oppa didn't mean it" and neither did she. We're not trying to stick up for what they did whatsoever. What the poster said is that it's easier to make that mistake than we think. She didn't say it was right and she understands why people are upset. What I meant was that we can't jump to the conclusion whether or not they did or didn't mean it and dragging them through the mud like this is a bit harsh for not knowing their entire situation. I think I made it pretty clear that I think what they did was wrong, seeing that I repeated that part twice. What's bothering me is how harsh a lot of people are being when complaints can be worded in a less...virulent way.

And idk...do you REALLY think BTS/BigHit would do something like this on purpose knowing the implications of their actions? I'm pretty sure companies don't go around trying to stir up drama with their fans (especially after spats that happened these past couple months) just to stir up drama. Again, this is not an excuse for what they did (or didn't do)

Here's an article from the New Yorker explaining how this memorial could be unfortunately overlooked: http://www.newyorker.com/culture/richard-brody/the-inadequacy-of-berlins-memorial-to-the-murdered-jews-of-europe

You say it looks like a "literal graveyard" but there are no markers on the concrete slabs. I've talked to a few friends living in Germany and tbh, it could be easily mistaken as an art sculpture instead especially the way the residents treat the memorial (kids playing hide and seek in it, people eating on top of the slabs and running around through them, etc). Maybe I only have half a brain like you so kindly provided, but it's a matter of perspective and it doesn't look like a graveyard to me (and I don't think BTS exactly had a birds eye view of the place). If there were names on the concrete, then yes, they're pretty stupid not to notice, but there isn't. It just looks like a bunch of concrete pillars when you don't know where the information center is.

I don't also know where this "BTS had a full out photoshoot at the memorial" is coming from, seeing that they posted photos in other locations too. From the fanaccounts I've read, BTS was being dropped off at a bunch of different sites in Germany for only a few minutes to take a few photos before moving on to the next site. Apparently they were dropped off on the way other side of the information center and didn't stay there for very long so I can SEE how it could be a misunderstanding seeing that they didn't do their research. Again, I don't think that's an excuse and they should've been more careful. And yes, fans could be piling up one big cover up so people have every right to be angry, but I DON'T think all this hate and shaming is necessary. Teach them that it's wrong without screeching for their heads. I don't know when anger has ever been a healthy way of learning from a mistake.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I also don't want to go around burning people at stake without knowing the whole story.

Edited at 2015-01-13 05:35 am (UTC)
parkjsun 13th-Jan-2015 06:23 am (UTC)
What she's trying to do is shut people up. "99% of the people being angry about this aren't even Jewish/of Jewish-descent so please shut up and stop putting words into our mouths." As if people can't have emotions about an issue unless the event is happening to themselves and she speaks for the Jewish population. Why are you and her both trying to police how people should feel and react to the situation? How harsh people are being is completely irrelevant.

Saying, "oh it was just a mistake, there's no way they could have known" is definitely oppa-didn't-mean-it. That's the whole definition of the term.

do you REALLY think BTS/BigHit would do something like this on purpose knowing the implications of their actions?"

Do it on purpose? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think they knew the implications of their actions and that's where the problem lies. Ignorance isn't an excuse when information is readily available.

Which bring me to the New Yorker article. The article clearly states that it's obvious the site is some kind of memorial, what the piece is actually arguing is that at first glance it's hard to tell what the memorial is exactly for. The article also states that the slabs resemble "headstones or sarcophagi. So it’s something to do with death".

It also goes onto state that "The memorial also evokes a graveyard for those who were unburied or thrown into unmarked pits, and several uneasily tilting stelae suggest an old, untended, or even desecrated cemetery."

So you can see that it really doesn't help both of your points of how the entire memorial can be overlooked as a park. Again, memorials aren't a foreign concept to Koreans and information is readily available.

"From the fanaccounts". Again, you're trusting die-hard fans of the group to give you unbiased opinions? Where is your proof that these fan-accounts have any grain of truth? And if BTS were being dropped off at random sites how did fans know that they'd be dropped off at the memorial and then proceed to go there?

When it comes to companies, anger and outrage is most definitely the most effective way of getting through to them. In the end, all companies care about is that profit margin. If they're pissing off fans, that effects their profit and they'll want to find out why. This is why people boycott, and why it's so effective. You're trying to "teach" a corporation here; that's not going to work. I get really weirded out when kpop fans try to defend companies like they're real people.

Edited at 2015-01-13 06:28 am (UTC)
rennaii 13th-Jan-2015 06:55 am (UTC)
I'm not trying to defend their company though. I'm just not seeing why people have to hate on them so much when there are other ways of expressing anger/hurt. I don't like the way people are bandwagoning on the hate train because other people are hating on them. Kind of counterproductive imo.

And yes. I agreed that their lack of research was a sorely poor move on their part and this whole mess could've been avoided. I'm not denying that at all. And yes, if they bothered to look deeper into the site, they probably would've found that it was some sort of gravesite. However, I didn't say it was overlooked as a park. I said that residents there were TREATING it as if it was a park. But again, I wasn't there. You weren't there. We have no idea what the surrounding situation was when they decided to take those photos. Again. I don't think that's an excuse but some of the reactions are getting extreme. When I first saw the pictures, I was also extremely shocked, disappointed, and upset, but I wasn't about to go about sticking their heads on pikes and waving them around.

I can't say any more about the poster, but I'm not trying to police anyone at all. I've repeated several times that I understand why people are angry and they have a right to be. But I'm seeing some people just jumping in and yelling profanities at BTS/BigHit just because someone else before them did it. Is that right to you? Maybe we're talking about two different groups of reactions, but some people like knowing both sides of the story before jumping into a witch hunt. Is that so bad? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying I'm right. You're right in saying that we have no say in how other's react, but their reactions can also hurt others. You know how many hate-filled tweets the boys themselves are getting? Do you know how many people are fighting against each other right now? They read all that and you can't deny that they aren't human beings.

Fanaccounts as in friends with the person that actually showed up in the picture that Jin posted. But who knows. They could've been lying to me.

I've clearly stated that I think what they did was wrong, careless, and not something that should be brushed under the rug so I'm not really understanding the hostility you're showing towards me here.

Edited at 2015-01-13 06:57 am (UTC)
innertide 13th-Jan-2015 08:27 am (UTC)
When I first saw the pictures, I was also extremely shocked, disappointed, and upset, but I wasn't about to go about sticking their heads on pikes and waving them around.

You think that's what people's intent is when they call them out? Wow. People are rightfully criticizing this act, nobody is "trying to stick their heads on pikes" (which is pretty fucked up to say when they're disrespecting a historical event that had victims who literally suffered from this kind of actual violence, but okay, use those tactless exaggerated comparisons anyway, why not).

Your entire comment basically makes it very clear that you prioritize the poor group members' feelings over people who are legitimately offended by this. I don't care how disappointed/upset/shocked you claim you are, when you're trying to silence people who are hurt by this (especially those who have a family who faced the trauma of the Holocaust), you are absolutely on the side of the ignorant and racist Oppa-didn't-mean-it crowd. parkjsun is right, criticism is important - trying to be a devil's advocate in this case is completely insensitive and misguided considering how unequivocally offensive this photoshoot's location is.
rennaii 13th-Jan-2015 09:04 am (UTC)
What even. I NEVER SAID I WANTED TO SILENCE ANYONE?? SERIOUSLY WTF??? No I can't even...WTF???? WHERE DID YOU EVEN GET THAT FROM???? What I merely said was that there are other ways of wording your criticism instead of calling people disgusting and to go hurt themselves??? I don't see how hurting more people is progressive in alerting others that this situation is upsetting??

I never said "oppa didn't mean it." I never said don't criticize them. I never said people weren't hurt by this incident?? I never said I prioritize anyone's feelings over another??? I CLEARLY said that what they did was WRONG and this was "not something that should be brushed under the rug." Since when was wanting to educate oneself on both sides of the situation before making a decision ignorance??? Shouldn't ignorance be one who DOESN'T TRY AND FIGURE OUT BOTH SIDES FIRST???

???? ?? ???? There aren't enough question marks I can put here to express my ?????????

I don't know if we're reading the same thing but now you're just putting words in my mouth and this is EXACTLY the situation that I was saying we needed to avoid. I'm not talking about JUST BTS's feelings. I'm talking also talking about the people who got dragged into this mess and are fighting with each other without knowing the situation. My point wasn't that they're faultless (they're not???). It's that people are waging hurtful word wars against each other and that's totally counterproductive?? Kind of LIKE RIGHT NOW?? Do you expect all of us to go around bashing people to pieces? Is that the ONLY way to express that you're offended??

Hell. If you're offended SAY YOU'RE OFFENDED but be CIVIL about it?? Don't go ripping people apart because you're angry?? You can say that they're despicable pieces of shit but if you don't tell them why they're never gonna understand why exactly what they did was offensive??

Before you go around calling people ignorant and racist, why don't you READ THE WHOLE COMMENT FIRST INSTEAD OF PICKING APART WORD CHOICES? Sorry if the expression I chose offended you. That wasn't my intention at all, but aren't you arguing against the wrong person? I ALREADY AGREED THAT WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG AND PEOPLE CAN BE ANGRY IF THEY WANT TO BE. I don't know why you're dogging after a person WHO AGREES WITH YOU??? I completely respect people's standpoints on this situation so I was trying to be civil about it, but now I'm kinda really pissed off that you thought it was okay to dish out insults against me when you don't even know who I am. Like I just can't wrap my head around how stubborn you are to try and turn everyone who doesn't have the same exact view as you into an enemy.
innertide 13th-Jan-2015 11:07 am (UTC)
You say you're on the same page but your opinion clearly indicates that you don't understand the underlying issue at hand (and tbh, taking my words too personally and getting overly defensive about this matter when it's not about you).

You're stating that "people waging hurtful word wars against each other is counterproductive," which says everything about how you perceive this issue. Your stance is clearly not one of somebody who gets why this criticism is important and matters to people. There's no 'reverse discrimination' at work here, those who are descendants of Holocaust survivors' especially would know full well how the way this issue is debated is hurtful. We don't get equality by being extra polite and asking very very nicely of our oppressors and their proponents to stop, fyi.

tbh - a person saying they're upset about racist behavior but then defending those who are perpetuating it because people who call them out are being too 'mean' or w/e? And acting like the harshest critics are on the same level as them? Nah. We're not on the same page. Not in the slightest.
rennaii 13th-Jan-2015 11:38 am (UTC)
Yes, I got offended because you clearly called me racist. I don't know if you meant for it to come off that way, but it came off as personal and I'm not gonna sit around and fart rainbows over it.

But you know what, all I wanted to get across was "oh hey I can SEE why this COULD be a misunderstanding but they should've been more careful and now they royally screwed up. Yes, we should criticize their actions, but we shouldn't be perpetuating hate towards the wrong people." I don't see how that is equivalent to racist, ignorant, and "oppa didn't mean it."

I am fully aware of why criticism is extremely important here. It's an entire culture, a history of pain and suffering to a lot of people and that is very, very real. I am in no way trying to demean the feelings of those who are affected or diminish the insensitivity against the culture. I don't know how many times I've had to say it, but I just don't think we should be savages about the way we give that criticism. How does that make us any better than those defending what they did? I'm not saying we have to be super polite and invite them over for tea, but there are ways to give that criticism without telling others to go kill themselves (yes I've seen that going around). THAT IS ALL.

I've said time and again, I'M NOT DEFENDING WHAT THEY DID AT ALL. I can see how they came to do what they did, but it doesn't excuse them for this shitty move.

I'm done. We're obviously not going anywhere with this. Like holy shit, you people are scary af. Pack of piranhas seeking out blood. Bye.
ckino9095 13th-Jan-2015 08:48 am (UTC)
Im sorry but your whole essay is oppa-didnt-mean-it
rennaii 13th-Jan-2015 09:07 am (UTC)
But I didn't say oppa didn't mean it. I said they were at fault?? I merely meant that you can choose better wording to show your criticism ????
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